Interview with Alan Woods: "Nationalisation of the banks - the only solution"

Today another interview with Alan was published in a Greek paper. The paper is called "Εfimerida ton Syntakton” (Journal of Editors) (www.efsyn.gr) and is produced by a cooperative of journalists and press workers who used to work for the centre-left "Eleftherotypia" newspaper, which closed in 2011. The paper, which is run  under self-management and is self-funding, sells 25.000-30.000 copies daily.

Nationalisation of the banks - the only solution

Interview: Tassos Tsakiroglou

The British Marxist Alan Woods believes that Greeks have not voted against Europe as such but against the dominance of the banks and the Troika, a yoke which he invites them to shake off. He proposes an alliance between SYRIZA and KKE to implement a socialist programme.

You're in favour of a unified Europe, but, as you put it, “it cannot be achieved on the basis of capitalism”. What's the alternative and how can it be implemented?

AW – On the basis of capitalism, there is no future for Greece either in or out of the EU. The problem is not the Euro or the EU but capitalism itself. The EU represents the big banks and monopolies, not the people. It is necessary to expropriate them in order to abolish the chaos, waste and unemployment that are the inevitable result of capitalist crisis. Then it will be possible to establish a harmonious plan that would pull together the vast resources of Europe for the benefit of all. Only in this way can we abolish the national divisions and antagonisms which have plagued Europe for hundreds of years, and cost two world wars. The Greek people suffered more than anybody else from these catastrophes. Before the crisis most people in Greece were in favour of Europe. I believe that this is still true. What the people object to is not Europe but the rule of the banks and the Troika. This is what we have to overthrow. The Greek working class has a common interest with the workers of Spain, Italy, Portugal and other countries who are fighting to change society. The creation of a Socialist United States of Europe on the basis of equal and fraternal relations would be a beacon for the peoples of the whole world. It would be a giant step towards the establishment of world socialism.

According to you, none of the parliamentary left parties in Europe (including SYRIZA) are adequately expressing the real mood that exists in society and the main problem is the lack of a revolutionary leadership. What exactly is this “revolutionary leadership”?

AW – The mood of the people of Greece was shown by an opinion poll that said that 63% were in favour of a profound change in society and 23% were in favour of revolution. Yet none of the parties reflect this mood. It is ironic that precisely when the capitalist system is collapsing everywhere, almost all the leaders of the parliamentary left parties have abandoned socialism and embraced capitalism. We must fight to return the labour movement to the ideas of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky. Those are the only ideas that can lead us out of the crisis. In order to do this successfully, the Marxists must organise a tendency within the mass organisations of the working class nationally and internationally. That is what the IMT and its Greek section the Communist Tendency of SYRIZA are doing.

You recently warned that if SYRIZA win the next elections and then it pursue a policy of reconciliation with the banks and the troika, there will be a tremendous mood of anger and then it is very likely that the next government in Greece would be a coalition with the Golden Dawn. How possible do you consider this scenario?

AW – A SYRIZA government will have to choose between two options: either it takes steps to abolish the economic power of Capital, or it will be compelled to accept the dictates of the Troika, the bankers and capitalists, and carry out further cuts. That would cause tremendous demoralisation and a swing to the right. People would say: “They are all the same. Everyone betrays us.” The beneficiaries would be the New Democracy and the Golden Dawn. Because of the very deep crisis in Greece, the bourgeoisie will carry out further deep cuts. For this it will need a strong government, which very likely would include the Golden Dawn. But in practice this will not be a strong government, but a government of crisis.

With which political and social forces could SYRIZA ally after a possible electoral victory?

AW – SYRIZA must base itself on the working class and the popular masses that are its main base of support. The best solution would be a coalition of SYRIZA and the KKE. However, the future of such a government would be entirely determined by its policies and programme. A government composed of socialists and communists could introduce an enabling act to nationalise the land, the banks and big enterprises under workers control and management, expropriate the property of the wealthy shipping magnates and other parasites and take measures to plan the economy on democratic socialist lines. It should mobilise the masses outside parliament to support these policies. It should encourage the workers to take action, occupying factories and introducing workers’ control to prevent factory closures and the sabotage of the bosses, as a step towards nationalisation. This is a necessary precondition for solving the crisis. By mobilising all the productive forces of Greek society in a democratic socialist plan, it would be possible to eliminate unemployment and raise the productive forces to a far higher level. Only in this way can the tremendous creative potential of the Greek people be realised.

You have concluded that “what happened in Venezuela was a revolution, insofar as Chavez gave a voice to those who had no voice”. How would you define the Venezuelan revolution and do you think that this model is compatible with Europe?

AW – What happened in Venezuela was a revolution in the sense that it aroused millions of workers and peasants for the transformation of society. The Bolivarian government carried out many progressive measures, but there is a problem. They have not completed the expropriation of the oligarchy. This is a fatal mistake. All history shows that you cannot make half a revolution. The result is a chaotic situation, economic crisis, inflation and falling living standards in which the capitalists use their economic power to sabotage the revolution. I warned Chavez of this a long time ago. This is a warning to SYRIZA of what can happen if a consistent socialist policy is not pursued. That is the lesson for Greece and the rest of Europe.

What is your analysis of Golden Dawn? What are the reasons behind its rise in popularity and influence?

AW – Golden Dawn is a fascist movement reflecting the rage and despair of a layer of the petit bourgeoisie in conditions of extreme social and economic crisis. The old political parties are discredited. People blame them for the crisis that has destroy their living standards, ruined their businesses and made their pensions worthless. The fascist demagogues have had the luxury of being in opposition where they can give a voice to the discontent of the petit bourgeois masses against the political establishment without having to accept any responsibility. However, they have no real alternative to offer and actually defend the capitalist system that has ruined the petit bourgeoisie. When the Golden Dawn enters a government, its social base can disappear as quickly as it arose. A right wing coalition including the Golden Dawn would carry out deep cuts and austerity. It would lead to an intensification of the class struggle and probably would not last long. It would prepare the ground for a further swing to the left with revolutionary implications.

Source: «Η εθνικοποίηση των τραπεζών, η μόνη λύση»